Outspoken vegan physician and author Dr. John McDougall is our guest today in Episode 686 of โThe Livinโ La Vida Low-Carb Show.โ
[powerpress]
After months of being away from this podcast while writing the manuscript to his forthcoming August 27, 2013 book Cholesterol Clarity: What The HDL Is Wrong With My Numbers?, our host Jimmy Moore is back in his rightful place again interviewing the top names in the world of diet, fitness and health. Jimmy wanted to make sure his first episode back was a memorable one and we have a sneaky suspicion this could be one of the most-listened to interviews he’s ever done. We wanted to find someone who would be intriguing, engaging and even a bit controversial to get Jimmy back into the fray again. BOY DID WE EVER!
Dr. John McDougall, author of The Starch Solution: Eat the Foods You Love, Regain Your Health, and Lose the Weight for Good!, is arguably the most famous proponent of a starch-based vegan diet in the world and graciously accepted Jimmy’s invitation to appear on “The Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb Show.” Since Jimmy has had respectful and cordial conversations with other vegan advocates such as Dr. Dean Ornish and Dr. Neal Barnard in the past, he was more than pleased to hear what Dr. McDougall had to share regarding his nutritional philosophies. Unfortunately, somebody forgot to send Dr. McDougall the memo that Jimmy Moore’s a nice guy.
This episode is an instant classic that you will find extremely entertaining for a variety of reasons. Whether you are Paleo, low-carb, vegan or vegetarian, something tells us you won’t be able to resist listening from start to finish and then wanting to go back and listen again and again! While Jimmy attempted to remain civil in discussing nutrition with Dr. McDougall, it quickly became apparent that Dr. McDougall was more interested in disparaging and mocking our host for being overweight and unhealthy despite the fact that he weighs less and is healthier today than he has ever been in his entire adult life. Hold on to your hats as you listen to this one, folks, because it’s a wild and bumpy ride! ENJOY!
ACCESS THE FULL TRANSCRIPT OF THIS INTERVIEW
The following are all the videos referenced during today’s interview:
Low Carb vs. Plant-Based
Obese Low Carb Guru of the Month–Jimmy Moore
Low Carb Guru Of The Month Jimmy Moore Responds To VegSource
Jimmy Moore – Low Carb Guru Update!
GINA RYAN’S “NOURISHING BY HEART” NUTRITION COUNSELING:
GET 40% OFF NUTRITION COUNSELING SERVICES
NOTICE OF DISCLOSURE: http://cmp.ly/3LINKS MENTIONED IN EPISODE 686
– Gina Ryan’s “Nourishing By Heart” nutrition counseling (40% discount for LLVLC fans)
– Dr. John McDougall bio
– The Starch Solution: Eat the Foods You Love, Regain Your Health, and Lose the Weight for Good!
– Dr. McDougall’s Health and Medical Center
– Dr. McDougall on Twitter
– Dr. McDougall on Facebook
– Dr. McDougall’s “McDougallCast” podcast
– Dr. McDougall’s interview with Dr. Robert C. Atkins
– RELATED PODCAST: 657: LLVLC Classic โ Dr. Dean Ornish Says There Is Common Ground Between Low-Fat And Low-Carb Diets
– RELATED PODCAST: 415: Dr. Neal Barnard On Vegetarian And Vegan Diabetes Control
impossible to listen to. full of himself for sure. and don’t go there again jimmy!!! i have already told you. you need to eat lentils mr. moore. stick to it, please. lovely jobely jimmy. this time you earned it.
๐ Thank you!
Nice Job Jimmy. Dr. McDougall appears to be an ideologue and will not accept other positions. He is blinded by his ideology and unwilling to even examine other opinions. He neither knows anything nor looks at evolutionary biology. We evolved BEFORE populations exploded. Those meso American populations he cited were riddled with tooth decay (and other neolithic diseases) while the hunter gatherers hand none.
I got annoyed with him saying “I’m a doctor!” Very arrogant! I am a doctor, too and would never talk like that.
He did sound desperate stating that over and over.
Would have loved to listened to a more cordial exchange, but it appears Dr. McDougall had a pre-established agenda. I would have loved to have heard more insight into the many mineral deficiencies you’ve developed. It makes the vegan/B12 argument seem silly when peering at the many nutritional failures of 365 days of ketosis. Seems unfair to try and sweep those under the rug, yet rail on vegans for the B12 “confusion”. Dietary dogma doesn’t help anyone.
And yet he didn’t want to discuss anything off his agenda.
I was dying to listen to this podcast and am absolutely APPALLED at Dr. McDougall’s lack of openmindness and unwillingness to have a mature conversation, answer questions or at least be respectful. Jimmy is one of the classiest people I know, and I don’t understand how anyone can be SO rude! Keep up the good work, Jimmy. Don’t let a man like this keep you down. You are changing the WORLD with your work!
This was fun and funny actually. Love ya Cass!
You’re comparing an M.D. with decades of experience with this diet to a guy who’s been yo-yoing and finally settled on a paleo diet. I only trust one of those sources, especially when the science of one trumps the anecdotes of the other.
The one point on which I feel you are mistaken, Jimmy, is the idea that I will want to listen “again and again.” It was very difficult to keep from throwing things, and that is a real problem, because his assertions need to be debated on their merits or lack thereof. But his astounding level of pompous arrogance gets in the way of doing that. Need to step back, count to ten, maybe work from a transcript. As others have noted, your forbearance really did go above and beyond.
A bit tongue in cheek with “again and again.” ;))
Indeed! And I meant to give you a wink on that one myself. ๐
What studies is he citing for his belief that low-carb diets cause heart disease? I’ve heard of NONE. What right does have to say that you are somehow doing a disservice to your listeners. He is such a dick to you and so condescending.
Jimmy, you are so patient and calm and gratious and he was so completely rude and pushy and obnoxious. That was a difficult interview to listen to. I wanted him to address what a person who is metabolically challenged should do when their BG spikes from eating all those starches. Just push through it? Make themselves even more sick?
I wanted him to explain how it is that 90% of grocery store food aisles contain carbohydrates in the form of breads, crackers, whole grain cereals, corn chips, potato chips, sodas, candies, and THAT maybe is why people are sick, not because of the $16/lb rib eye steaks or the $25/lb salmon. It’s as if things like GMOs, food preservatives, pesticides, dyes are not an issue.
His demeanor is typical of many vegans I know, and that means that he’s easily aroused and crabby. Must be the lack of protein and appropriate micronutrients. He needs some Zoloft and a steak, STAT.
You are spot on, Jimmy, that there are so many people out there who have experienced wellness and lost weight on HFLC, and many more who were previously vegan who came back from the brink of ill health with a paleo diet. He seems to want to believe that you are the only person having improved health from this way of eating because he can’t explain black swans and doesn’t want to. He’s Ancel Keys throwing away data all over again!
Fanatics and ideologues with a pulpit are extremely dangerous.
Keep up the good work, Jimmy. I’ve learned so much from the experts, doctors and scientists you’ve brought on your show. It’s helped me in ways you can’t imagine. Yes, I was enamored with the vegan low-fat, high grain lifestyle once, and I kept getting sicker and fatter. Thank goodness I found Gary Taubes, then Tom Naughton’s film, then you.
You have to eliminate fats and sugars and meat and stick to whole food starches like beans potatoes etc… friuts and vegetables. A vegan diet . Your fat intake should be 10% protein 10% and carbs 80%.
You are grace under pressure Jimmy. Attitudes like his are the reason Vegan’s are still on the fringe. I feel sorry for him carrying around all that anger. It’s not healthy.
I tried his diet for a few months last year and couldn’t stay on it. The food was bland and boring and not satisfying. I like “our” way of eating much better.
Just still steamed about this one. Very infuriating to listen to him repeatedly avoid answering a perfectly good question. Never, not once, did Jimmy claim or even imply that Dr. McDougall was an advocate of a diet rich in sugar and refined carbs — even though “sugar plantation doctor” offered a very inviting opportunity to do so. (Inviting, but not really relevant or fair. Jimmy was right not to take that opportunity.)
The question of which part of people’s dietary changes may have caused them to become fat and sick — eating meat, or adopting the “standard Western diet” with all its refined carbs, or even some other factor — is a valid question. Jimmy was absolutely right to persist in attempting to have it addressed, and McDougall refused at every turn. Instead, he used it as a bogus excuse to accuse “Mister Moore who is not a Doctor like I am” of making a claim that he never once made.
It was an aggressive, belligerent, and petulant way to avoid an entirely legitimate question. “There you go again” may work well in a political debate and help garner votes, but it does not win an argument based on any substance.
I found it very hard to keep listening to this one!
I thought it was interesting that several times in the interview, he listed the starches he likes his people to eat, but that list never included wheat. That could have been a point of agreement and civil discussion. And it could have led to a discussion of food quality, which fats his patients do have in their diets, does he ban seed oils and trans fats?
It was insulting that he thinks only doctors can understand topics that relate to health. Really? There are plenty of intelligent people who didn’t go to medical school. We probably have more time to keep up on studies, and aren’t encumbered with dogma those students are saddled with.
And lastly, it was just sad that he had to resort to personal attacks.
I’m glad you’re back, Jimmy, and I’m looking forward to hearing more from you!
I have felt for years that the McDougal diet metabolically screwed me up.
Wow. I can’t believe how condescending he is. He is an MD and thinks he can win an argument using the oft-used appeal to authority fallacy. He was very disrespectful. He had his ire up from the get-go.
I don’t like people being abusive to my Jimmy!
LOL! Thank you.
McDougall was cantankerous, but it made no sense to keep pushing him on refined carbohydrates when his message for optimal health is about whole plant foods.
But my point in bringing that up was to say those foods have caused such metabolic damage in some people that even his beloved starch can cause issues.
And every time you brought it up, Jimmy, he would cut you off in mid sentence and say something that translated to: “You’re not allowed to talk to me.”
“starch causing issues” is where you guys disagree, which is why he kept going back to all the years of experience he has had treating his patients with a starchy diet and also why he mentioned your low carb diet not being sustainable over the decade or so that you have followed it. Personally, I can’t understand how anyone could consider beans, peas, lentils, etc being unhealthy. Doesn’t make sense to me.
What he didn’t allow me to say was that all those years of refined carbohydrates caused such insulin resistance that even starches are now off limits for me.
They are unhealthy because they contain lectins, gluten and/or phytates.
From Mark’s Daily Apple:
“Lectins are bad. They bind to insulin receptors, attack the stomach lining of insects, bind to human intestinal lining, and they seemingly cause leptin resistance. And leptin resistance predicts a โworsening of the features of the metabolic syndrome independently of obesityโ. Fun stuff, huh?
Gluten might be even worse. Gluten, found in wheat, rye, and barley, is a composite of the proteins gliadin and glutenin. Around 1% of the population are celiacs, people who are completely and utterly intolerant of any gluten. In celiacs, any gluten in the diet can be disastrous. Weโre talking compromised calcium and vitamin D3 levels, hyperparathyroidism, bone defects. Really terrible stuff. And it gets worse: just because youโre not celiac doesnโt mean you arenโt susceptible to the ravages of gluten. As Stephan highlights, one study showed that 29% of asymptomatic (read: not celiac) people nonetheless tested positive for anti-gliadin IgA in their stool. Anti-gliadin IgA is an antibody produced by the gut, and it remains there until itโs dispatched to ward off gliadin โ a primary component of gluten. Basically, the only reason anti-gliadin IgA ends up in your stool is because your body sensed an impending threat โ gluten. If gluten poses no threat, the anti-gliadin IgA stays in your gut. And to think, most Americans eat this stuff on a daily basis.
Phytates are a problem, too, because they make minerals bio-unavailable (so much for all those healthy vitamins and minerals we need from whole grains!), thus rendering null and void the last, remaining argument for cereal grain consumption.”
I don’t think we evolved to eat grains.
This is true. Dr. McDougall was rude, but Jimmy *did* keep going on about refined carbs, which had been adequately addressed several times.
Dr. McDougall is mistaken in writing off Dr. Wahls’ success as a ‘case study of one.’ She is a physician herself and is running clinical trials on her protocol. From what she revealed so far (at AHS I believe) the results thus far are promising. I’m looking forward to hearing more news.
Roy Swank never ran clinical trials; his data comes from the patients he treated and his hypothesis was based on outdated fat-will-kill-you hysteria; he didn’t even recognize MS as an autoimmune disorder. The positive results his patients experienced could have been explained by removing things besides fat like vegetable/seed oils and sugar, both pro-inflammatory. And if fat was so horrible, it’s interesting that Swank rec’d supplementing his diet with daily fish oil.
Also, LOL at sugar rots teeth… and what does starch turn into right in your mouth?
Others have pointed out the obvious problems with Dr. McDougall’s position: he does not have a single controlled medical trial comparing his plan to Atkins, or any other well formulated LCHF diet. He also obstinately ignores any studies he does not like.
Also his assertion that large societies thrived on agriculture… This is true, but only from a logistics and food supply perspective. There is plenty of evidence that average height and muscle mass decreased as cultures across the world changed from herding/hunting to agriculture.
But the worst parts to me were his rudeness (Jimmy, you are a gentleman) and his constant need to remind both his interviewer and his listeners that he is a doctor, as if that gives him a monopoly on the truth. As a physician myself, I was actually embarrassed by this attitude.
Those of you who heard this, please do not judge all my colleagues by this example.
I would like to ask him if he could name even one society in the history of the world that was strictly vegetarian.
Jimmy, I love your site, I have learned so much listening to the experts that you have on your shows and reading about your n=1 experiment, thank you so much.
I’ve lost 40 pounds in 2 months and my arthritis is gone.
That’s so awesome Bob!
I would love to see Dr. Richard Bernstein debate this moron.
Doctors are usually ignorant about nutrition, so there may be only a few with the title of “doctor” that could rip this guy a new one.
I love how he said he did brain surgery in the middle of the night. It made me think of Dr. Frankenstein. Is that his badge of honor?
Also, he doesn’t mention what kind of meat (grass fed anyone?), what kind of dairy, what kind of oil.
Most corn in the US is GMO, but he doesn’t say a word about that.
Jimmy, you are a saint to put up with this pompous piece of crap.
Thanks so much for this. He hung himself with this interview because he proved what a douchebag he is to the world.
I just let him keep talking letting out a little more rope each time.
You are a smart man Jimmy Moore!!! I love it!!
I just love how he keeps calling Jimmy “Mr Moore”. Can you get any more condescending? I got the feeling he was the school master and you were the naughty student.
He said Fallon, Cordain, Sears are fat and sick? How are they sick? Skinny people can be sick too, ya know.
I think he’s a little sick in his potato head!
Another thing…he sponsors cruises and charges people tons of money to listen to these silly seminars and eat cheap starch food.
Mark Sisson did an article about this as he actually went on one of his little pleasure cruises. (His wife dragged him there). He didn’t have great things to say (what a surprise).
I just had a fabulous idea. What say we all go on McDougalls Protocol with the stipulation that if we gain weight, develop a disease, etc. that we can sue the pants off of him. Yes, we will follow the diet to the letter and if any one of us gets diabetes, then “Mr. McDougall” goes to court.
I want to see him sign a contract saying that we will improve our health with his program. Any bets this would never happen?
Not in a million years!
I did not realize that Dr McDougal made that evil video of you
Yep! And the lies continued when they responded again. He said he’d correct the video with my new pics, but I’m not holding my breath.
McDougall once opined that the Mongols (incidentally a large, successful population) ‘conquered the known world’ on a starch-based diet! He also wouldn’t appear to be aware that sugar is a carbohydrate.
Be far more likely to listen to someone like Caldwell Esselstyn, (who has some kind of grasp of the scientific method) on the subject of ‘high-starch’ than this loud-mouthed dribbling.
Let’s hope he doesn’t meet a Mongol down a dark alley, eh?
Hi Jimmy, this was the first LLVLC podcast I’ve listened to and what a way to start! I think the most disgusting thing about this was the ad homonym attacks on your weight issues. I watched those Vegsource vids and they were extremely biased and mean about the low-carb authors that were singled out (notice how they didn’t show Gary Taubes, Mark Sisson or Andreas Eenfeldt). In my opinion, all the veg authors looked frail and sickly: hardly a rousing endorsement of the hi-carb lifestyle.
What gets me about those videos is it is all about weight. Being at a lower weight does not automatically equal health. And yet that equation is used again and again.
Exactly jimmy. I was thinking the same thing and they look so dried up! Why is that?
Dr. John McDougall’s defensiveness and very negative attitude are proof alone to me that
eating a vegan diet/high starch diet is harmful to your body and your
mind – what an A-HOLE!! He would be a lot happier and much calmer if he
would just eat some healthy grass fed meat and animal fats, it’s what we
as humans were designed to eat. This guy is hurting so many people in
the name of “wanting to be right” — PS- he is also one of the idiots
featured in the horrible documentary called “Forks over knives”which has
hurt so many people.
We evolved on a starchy diet? Everything I’ve been reading about evolutionary diet (think Richard Leakey and his colleagues) says that meat was an important food source for our Homo ancestors.
I was outraged when I listened to this interview with such a disrespectful and arrogant individual making claims and controlling the interview like he was the person interviewing and also using his status as “I’m a doctor and you’re not” insulting tone! I did the “Rave” diet and read their sites and books for a whole year and although I lost weight, I lost much of my muscle mass and still my belly fat was not gone and still I had allergies and stomach problems doing their way of eating for a year. Oh, I also was constantly hungry like a cow or goat always eating because I was never satiated! And he dares to say that the other cultures barely ate meat? The Japanese in Okinawa eat meats and fish with vegetables and rice so where does he come from saying this people barely ate meat?
Great job Jimmy. I was very proud of you. Thank you.
Asian people LOVE meat! They didn’t eat much before because there wasn’t much. If they get to choose, they go to the fatty parts first. But now the western food ideas are poisoning them and there are more and more diabetes and obesities there.
I agree with you on that!
Asians weren’t fed coke before either.
Jayparadox, that was my first impression too. I felt like “hey, whose show is this anyway??” I don’t think any other radio host would have put up with that disrespect and the plug would have been pulled early. Jimmy was way too polite but I understand his strategy. Let the “good doctor” reveal himself and his character for all to see.
It was not an easy podcast to hear for me due to all the lies and lack of scientific evidence on his part. I was wondering how this guy called himself a doctor and ignore the evidence of our low carb/paleo community so disdainfully when we are now a great group with proof of the success of how this lifestyle affects us for better health Jimmy being a perfect example of it. I have no respect or regard for this warmongering doctor who has not etiquette and grace to present his case in a gentle and polite manner Sharon.
Yikes! All health gurus appear to resemble the California Raisins…without as much talent and personality.
I’m so glad Jimmy is returned in beautiful form. Missed you!
Sugar plantation workers were healthy, until they were deprived of the right to keep their own chickens, pigs, goats and cows. They eat dry corn flakes and drink coke from the company store.Where is The McDougall Population of Perfect Potato People? That’s the video veg-prop needs to produce. They always say they’ve got science, but all the militant vegans really bring to the table is insults and demands for sacrifice.
Happy to be back!
This podcast is really interesting. I believe it will work if one just lives on steamed rice and stir fried veggies with minimum oil. Like what my Chinese ancestors did due to lack of food. They ate little and worked a lot. They lived long due to the caloric control benefit. But then what’s fun in life, you cannot eat sweets because sugar is bad. You also cannot eat meat and fat. Why bother to live such a long and boring life?
Low-carb also works and the foods are much more enjoyable. It is total bullshit that low-carb causes constipation. I don’t eat grains and starchy veggies. But my bowel movements are very good. BTW, I was severely constipated when I was eating a lot of starches like rice.
Every starchy food he recommends acts to spike my blood sugar. Starch is not good for diabetics. I think it is apparent that low fat vegan diets cause brain damage. Essential fatty acids are known to improve metal function, I think your guest would benefit from a better diet.
Yes, Ernie, they must cause brain damage because I think Dr. Potato Head is the poster boy for this claim.
What a low down MD condensing, close minded individual he was in the interview. This was very hard to listen to this interview. I hope you never have him on again.
I looked at his book on Amazon and he got tons of accolades from the vegan authors, preachers, etc. What I found completely stunning was that John Mackay, founder of Whole Foods really stroked him well but yet he has a large butcher dept. in his store. What a hippocrate! Mackay has allowed GMO products to be sold at WF for how many years now? Oh he finally woke up and in 2018, they will be removed. Isn’t that special?
Whole Foods uses canola oil in their prepared foods..just read the ingredients when you go to the hot bar.
At any rate, Dr. Potato Head made no mention of GMOs. Also, he seems to be a fan of the “lowest cholesterol is best” dogma, another archaic mentality.
i don’t want to stoop as he did when he ripped Jimmy’s physical appearance, but many of these vegan types are very “wispy” looking. Bill Clinton follows this type of diet and he doesn’t look very strong to me anymore
And yes, I have noticed that mean, nasty attitudes of most vegetarians. There was an ex vegan who was giving a lecture on youtube (sorry the name escapes me) telling how she gave up veganism and how bad the diet is for you and some guys came from back stage and threw a pie containing capsain in her face. Save the animals, harm the people..nice!
There have been many comments here that are similar: “What would the doctor say if I told him that my blood glucose spikes when I eat starches?” I think the answer is obvious. He would say, “No, it doesn’t.”
Perhaps John needs to ingest more of Graham’s crackers, and Kellogg’s corn flakes ๐ His mean spirit at first made me incredulous of his scientific claims, but by the end of the show I simply pitied him as a close minded bully. What kept me listening was Jimmy’s extraordinary level of grace under fire … very inspiring to say the least!
grahams cracker and kellogs corn flake is not part of the mcdougall program from what I read. Whole foods. Not store bought Gmo corn syrup chemical shit.
I am surprised that no one ever brings up the North American plains and west coast aboriginals as large successful groups that ate no starch. They simply cannot tolerate carbs or sugars of any kind.
They obviously adapted differently than the rest of us. You couldn’t possibly base your diet on their “success”.
Actually, this was in response to McDougal’s assertion that no populations other than the fringe Inuits had diets that had no or virtually no starch, which is demonstrably false. It was not a suggestion that “the rest of us”, however you define that, should adopt any particular diet.
What you eat should really depend on what is best for you individually. Having done some self experimentation, I fairly good idea of what I should base my diet on.
You don’t seem to even know the dietary patterns of paleolithic man, do you? Some were very heavy meat-eaters, some ate little meat and some ate 50/50. All seemed to do ok (by their standards). There are also populations around today where lactose intolerance doesn’t exist, and other places where it’s the norm. Humans adapt to what they had available in their environment at the time. When starch was abundant, we thrived on it – and considering that all the major civilizations in recorded history relied on starches, McDougall is correct. The last time I checked, the Inuits of old were barely surviving, let along expanding over the globe.
Considering that we’ve mastered food production, why should we continue to live like the hunter gathers who had NO CHOICE in what they ate? Seems like a step back.
Wow, that is a pretty big assumption and you know what happens when you assume things.
I do know a bit about what pre-historic people ate and, from what I have read, at least as much as you.
You also make another assumption in which hunter gathers/prehistoric/paleolithic peoples had no choice in what they ate. There is a lot of evidence that they were very discriminate in the vegetables that they gathered and animals they hunted that formed their diets.
I have come across several pf papers which argue that they tended to favour the sources that provided the greatest nutrition for the least energy expenditure. But who cares?
The real question here is not to define all the myriad foods that our predecessors ate and whether it is the “ideal” diet, but what is best for me (or you, or JImmy). For Jimmy it appears that it maybe cheese and for you? Eggplant perhaps.
“I have come across several pf papers which argue that they tended to favour the sources that provided the greatest nutrition for the least energy expenditure.”
Interesting, since we didn’t have a workable concept of nutrition before the 1800’s…
The climates of prehistoric humans did not allow them to be very particular about what they ate – being part of and coming out of the last ice age, there was very little they could do, other than adapt to what was available. This included eating bark (yes, there is evidence for this).
But still, why bother basing your current diet, in spite of all the advancements to food production and nutritional wisdom, in order to be more like our underprivileged ancestors?
So what does having a “workable concept of nutrition before the 1800’s” have to do with this?
Here is an example of how creatures without a ” workable concept of nutrition” are still actively select foods that will maximize their nutrition given the amount of energy that they have to expend. Bears. During the late summer salmon runs on the NorthWest Pacific coast bears will target the salmon. But not just the salmon, they eat the skins and head and throw away the rest. Why? Because the skin and heads are extremely rich in nutrient dense fat.
So there is really no need for a theory of anything to recognize where you can get the most bang for the buck when it comes to food.
For most of history, it was the underprivliged that had to resort to living on a mostly plant based diet, because they could not afford more nutritionally dense meat. Because of this, the average peasants were much smaller in stature than their contemporary ruling classes who ate a much higher quality diet.
But again it is all irrelevant as I am most interested in what diets gives me the most benefits and you are welcome to do the same.
“So what does having a “workable concept of nutrition before the 1800’s” have to do with this?”
Because you assume that prehistoric humans knew what they were eating based on an understanding of nutrition. I’ve stated that they didn’t have much choice in what to eat.
And please don’t bring up what other animals do – it bares no relevance to our modern human society.
he said large populations and made that very clear. The two you mentioned were not large populations.
Hi Jimmy. While i don’t argue that the McDougall diet is horrible, i.e. you are likely to experience health benefits from following the diet, he never explained how it was ideal. What was the “large” group that added to his credibility? Surely not the plantation workers for whom he was the physician. No matter where you come down on things, paleolithic man ate meat. Even if you cite Asian consumption of rice as ideal, how is that any different from people in the arctic eating what was available to him. Maybe that had to eat rice because it was available and their consumption of it is a credit man’s ability to thrive in a number of environments with a variety of diets. Does he serious believe that someone who eats his diet but adds some fish, eggs, chicken and other sources of protein will be just like the victims of the SAD?
He never really gave you a chance to say that a ketogenic diet is not the ideal human diet. It is certainly one approach for someone who has suffered severe metabolic damage as a result of years of eating a terrible diet. And he never explained how it would be an ideal diet for you, Jimmy Moore. If you already have bad insulin sensitivity, how does powering your body with carbohydrates make sense.
I think you were fair and respectful. While I don’t doubt Dr. McDougall knows the science, he resorted to sophomoric debating techniques resorted to by those who have no point. You owed him respect, and you gave it to him. He owed your listeners a better explanation than he gave. He acted as if no one listening to the show would be doing so with an open mind and he represented his viewpoint badly.
Dear Jimmy,
I don’t spend much time writing on blogs. But I don’t like bullies and I don’t think anyone else does either. Mr. McDougal’s approach (to use a phrase from my Buddhist friends) was unskillful. Somehow I didn’t walk away with the impression that he is a caring man.
You had a tough job. You were the host and could ask a few questions but couldn’t really enter into the debate. True Mr. McDougal, not many examples of pure low-carb cultures but also precious few who were vegans or even mostly vegan.
I came for the low-carb discussion. I tried low-carb and it failed. I stayed because I like you and your openness to new ideas. Like everyone else here I like you and genuinely wish you well. I have also tried Mr. McDougall’s diet. It also didn’t work for me.
I wish you would ask your guests a question — ‘What evidence would you need to see to change your opinion?’ You can tell a lot about a person by how they answer it. Are they looking for the impossible? Set the criteria too high and you could be stuck holding false views. Set the criteria too low and you’ll fall for every new idea. That is the heart of the discussion. I wonder if Mr. McDougall had the studies and depth of information he’s asking of you when he first formed his ideas all those years ago?
He was really a challenge and you took it on well. That said, the Dr. McDougall interview was a waste of your time, Jimmy. We know that what “works” for non-diabetics does not work for diabetics. Dr. McDougall is a medical doctor stuck in the 1950’s mindset plus he is arrogant and narrow-minded, a person who only hears what he wants to hear and bullies those who oppose him. Please, Jimmy, do try to find forward-thinking people to interview, those who live in the present, are up-to-date on new research & thus you will be providing the best for the listeners. There was no humor for listeners in the McDougall interview, only dismay, disappointment, frustration. Live, learn, and seek the helpful.
This interview served a great purpose–exposing him for his true colors.
Yes, Jimmy, it sure did. You had a righteous method to the madness.
What an arrogant SOB!
He wouldn’t even accept that you aren’t constipated. Don’t look at the crap in the toilet and trust your own eyes, listen to him tell you that you are constipated because of course, he’s a doctor and your just a dumb sh*t.
That’s the trouble with these guys. They read their books and do their studies and try to fit everyone into one box. n=1 is anathema to them. But to me, n=1 is the only thing that really matters in the end. If it doesn’t work for me it doesn’t matter if it worked for thousands of others.
Jimmy, go you!
Why was Dr. McDougall was so angry?! Maybe because he is under a lot of chronic stress from lack of healthy fat/proteins in his diet! haha.
I was truly interested in his thoughts and perspective, but wow, his anger and crazy defensiveness lost him a lot of credibility! Yikers. ๐
Thank you for being open to the other side of the debate, remaining calm, and conducting yourself professionally during this interview!
All I can say is Wow what a condescending little twirp. You treated him much nicer than I ever could have Jimmy as I wouldve lost it. That speaks volumes about your professionalism. DOCTOR (want to make sure I get that in) mcDougall is one Doc I would stay very far away from.
Do Vitamin B12 deficiency causes *meanness?
*meanness =
1. The state of being inferior in quality, character, or value; commonness.
2. The quality or state of being selfish or stingy.
3. A spiteful or malicious act.
Actually, it’s been studied that deficiency of B12 can shrink one’s brain. Many elderly people take B12 shots to keep their brain sharp. So yeah, you may be on to something.
I saw the last video clip (the one where they said Jimmy, Loren, Dr. Atkins, and the rest were still fat, then went on to say that one of “their guys” was in his 60’s and fit)–notice nowhere on the video did they present Mark Sisson, who is also 60, and you could scrub laundry on his washboard abs!!!
It’s called “cherry picking”!
Sorry to be all obsessed but I have been doing some deep thinking on this matter. First of all, McDougall is a bully and he managed to bully Jimmy throughout the interview. He also commented on the Paleo and low carb people’s appearances and said “Well, Atkins is dead!”. Umm..Atkins fell and hit his head. Everyone knows that is how he died. On the other hand, Pritikin, McDougall’s mentor, had leukemia and his cause of death was suicide. Too bad Jimmy wasn’t armed with that little tidbit of info. Even if Jimmy brought it up, Dr. Potato Head would have managed to derail him.
Next, in a perfect world, I’d like to see this debate. Imagine if you will, a panel of Ornish, Fuhrman, McDougall, Barnard, Esselstyn on one side and on the hero side, Paul Chek, Mark Sisson, Ron Rosedale, Art DeVany, Jonny Bowden, Dr. Sinatra, Jack Kruse, Richard Bernstein, Nora Gedgaudes. The first 5 mentioned are in incredible shape and the “fat man” slurs would never be uttered. I can assure you. We need to bring in the big guns on this one. These guys wouldn’t mince words and wouldn’t let that jerk get away with his bad behavior. But unfortunately, bullies tend to be cowards at heart and this debate would never take place live. Oh well…I can still have my fantasy.
BTW..Lance Dreher, a one time Mr Arizona and Mr Universe, who is about 58 now and still going strong in my town, has a radio show where he advocates high fat, low carb. He looks incredible still at his age. I would like to add him to the list.
I have a little story for you guys.
Last summer, a friend asked me to go to a Raw Vegan Meetup Party with her. I figured, why not and I attended. The food was interesting but the people were a little off. Many of them were overweight and I didn’t see any amazing specimens there.
So I was eating in the kitchen standing next to this group that were chatting. This is what I overheard..”It was really nice of these people to open their home to all these strangers. Yeah, but it’s a good thing it’s a vegan group or who knows who would have shown up.” I wanted so bad to turn and say something like “Yes, who knows if all the meat eating riff raff would have come here and ransacked their home. BTW…I had a burger for lunch!”
But I was a guest and I just ignored them. I took the high road as Jimmy did and kept my mouth shut.
Imagine if you went to a Paleo party and someone said “Good thing there are no vegans here” I doubt that would ever happen. It seems that only these kinds of people have that mean, predjudiced and paranoia mindset.
I wouldn’t mind saying that at a paleo party. I used to hang out with vegans and they were none too happy when I transitioned to eating things that moo and baa. I literally lost friends (who obviously weren’t real friends I guess). The word “cult-like” comes to mind. Veganism is more than just a way of eating; it’s akin to a brainwashing religion where non-believers are going to a fiery hell. Oh man, I hope they have my favorite grass-fed beef when I get there.
I would have loved for you to ask him how someone like myself could get diabetes while eating a McDougall type diet, which I did up until the time I became diabetic. Then I would have loved for you to ask him how I could use the starchy McDougall diet to resolve my diabetes when I was already eating that way when I got diabetes in the first place! I guess I am just n=1 as well…
He didn’t care.
Agreed! I was hard-core vegan for about 10 miserable years, and I never felt good. I was diagnosed with prediabetes last year before I started eating low carb and adding animals into my diet again. I’m actually eating MORE veggies than when I was a vegan and I’m never hungry like I was when eating a grain-heavy diet. My numbers are now 5.4% and 5.2% respectively for the last two a1c’s. Sweet, right?
Well done! Admittedly I resisted change, but I knew what had to be done. And if I lived back in the days before insulin and diabetes drugs, I would literally be dead by now had I continued eating starch.
Awesome!
Not when you’re watching the old carbohydrates and glucose.
Well done indeed. McDougall wants us to switch from a ‘rich mans’ diet of meat and veg which the “kings and queens ate” and go to a ‘poor mans’ diet of carbohydrate sources of low nutritional value. He is clearly not interested in science at all and has an agenda “you Westmen, Taubes and Cordain are not going to get away with this!!” Perhaps because he thinks the science is ‘settled’ (just like Phlogiston theory was for 100 years until Lavoisier and Priestley came along). I’d like to see a body fat % measurement of his patients who have lost weight on his high carb diet. They may have become thinner, but if most of what they lost in weight was muscle mass, then maybe his patients are just TOFI.
Interesting interview, Jimmy. You were very polite. I have been in both the low-fat vegan camp and the low-carb camp through the years. In fact I did the McDougall program in 2006, 2009, 2010 and 2012. I lost about 30 pounds in six months the first go-around, but my problem every time I tried the program was elevated blood glucose readings. With a typical breakfast of no-oil-not-even-Pam hash browns and BBQ sauce (a favorite of Dr. McDougall), lunch and dinner of naked baked potatoes, steamed veggies and sometimes a sweet potato or a few grapes for “dessert”, my BS would hit 350….sometimes more. I am a member of several vegan support boards, and I can tell you sustained elevated blood sugar on a high starch diet is not just my problem. I’m not a doctor or dietician, but I have a sense of what works for my body. I feel better limiting my daily carbs to 30-40g, and having more fat in my diet.. I’ve decided to stop listening to other people and start listening to my body. By the way, I had your podcasts downloaded on my iPad a few years ago. I always enjoyed your interviews. Glad I found you again. Johnny
Thanks buddy!
Talking to vegans this dogmatic is a lot like talking to religious extremists.
Wow, what an arrogant prick. His agitated tone does not sound like it comes from a place of confidence.
LOL!
Holy cow! That was hard to listen to. He made my blood boil in the first minute! The good Dr was nothing but condescending throughout. No class at all & clearly afraid that his “life’s work” may actually be wrong so instead of debating he’s tries to bully anyone who challenges him. Very weak man & any fair minded person can see that. Jimmy couldn’t have been more of a gentleman. Few could have put up with his tone like you did. I now have even more respect for you. You do deserve some kind of award for not snapping at him the way he did to you. That guy was so dang contentious. Thank God for Jimmy Moore!! I’m gonna go have a juicy steak now on our new grill.
Ha! Those one on the grill for me. ๐
Well done Jimmy! These interviews are important as the new science over the last 10 years is ignored by most folks like MacDoogal.
Dr. Eric Weston — er, I mean — Westman
I wasn’t going to let him make fun of your research without at least getting your name right. ๐
wow. I doubt the doc was ever overweight, ever struggled with being truly fat. the doc is a jack ass. I am not low carb or high carb, but I am diabetic and if I ate the diet the doc is suggesting I would be far more obese and using insulin like it was water or be dead. how do I know you ask? I had cancer, I couldn’t eat protein of any kind it just made me throw up. so I was on a carb and soft veg only diet for 4 months (until my surgery) and I gained a whopping 50lb and my insulin usage went over 250 units a day. Now, I exercise, I keep my carbs between 20 and 100, depending on how my day goes. I have celiac so avoiding carbs is easy. I eat a lot of vegies, 90-150 grams of protein a day, and drink a lot of water. the weight is falling off and I feel better. Jimmy is right, do what is right for your body not what some trumped up little dictator in a lab coat tells you.
Why are vegans so god damn angry, they just yell a lot and can’t really hold a reasonable conversation.
he isn’t a vegan he eats grains
Something about rational dialog atrophies when they stop eating butter, I suspect.
That was hard to get through. I used to follow McDougall, but he`s lost a lot of credibility. And it`s strange that he seems so angry.
Hi Joyce, did you ever do the McDougall ten day Santa Rosa program? I was signed up a few years ago, had my medical records sent over, but had something come up a the last minute. I’ve been on the “at home” program half a dozen times since 2006, but have never been able to get over the elevated BS readings following a starch based diet. I was surprised to hear his interview with Jimmy sound so defensive and angry.
I go up and down in my weight too. I go up when I eat starches and lose wheat when I eat meat and dairy. Funny that. Traditional Chinese diet didn’t have coca cola. Now look at them. Getting bigger! Trust me I’ve lived there for years!
Not to mention I just 2 people today that are super thin and have high cholesterol. One of their wives said they eat too much flour. The other I know eats lots of starches.
A month ago I had a bowl of spaghetti and I got an extreme blood rush to the head and my whole face went red. I ate rice and potato today and my whole face went red and I felt sluggish.
Starches and gets cholesterol. Starches and get blood rush and red face. huh interesting!
Dr. Robert O. Young is a high fat vegan. He says that you need fat to circulate the nutrients. A bad temper I believe is a result of a low fat diet. After I eat pasta and bread I feel argumentative. After eating lots of cheese and meat these days I feel a lot better. Cutting out starches was the best thing I have ever done.
I eat fruit and vegetables, I also eat rice, potato and other vegetable starches.But I also eat a lot of cheese and meat. I DONT eat wheat based foods! And guess what, the weight is a coming off!!
Good for you.
Dr. McD is being raked over the coals for his bad behavior on the New Atkins for A New You Amz. Discussion. I couldn’t drag and drop the address in here but if you look up T.Colin Campell’s review of The New Atkins.. “Imaginary Science…” you’ll see the support you got Jimmy. pg 507.
Starch or animals? Why not both? Potatoes and meat are both delicious and nourishing. They have both been in your ancestor’s diet for probably at least the last thirty thousand years unless you have major genetic roots from extreme environments.
I think most people only get into metabolic trouble when they start eating several large meals a day and walking less than a half mile a day. Or they make the other mistake and eat very irregular, small meals while being physically active. Both of these will lead to metabolic stress that will wreck your body and mind.
I really enjoy having a big starchy carb and animal feast in the evening where I get almost all of the food I need for the next day. It feels awesome and I sleep awesome. Then I usually don’t eat again until I get a little hungry in the mid to late afternoon where I usually only eat a half cup of nuts at most. Then it’s feasting time again with friends and family a few hours later for the rest of the night.
If I’m going to be really active for hours I usually have a large breakfast too. This is a great daily rhythm that has made my entire health and body composition better than ever. It’s extremely simple, fool-proof, and usually works great with my schedule.
Most people don’t need to choose between starch or meat to have well working metabolism. You don’t have to choose between McDougall or Moore extremes. You can have both (like a normal human being) if you concentrate your starch and most of your eating to the evening.
Intermittent fasting is the key to a long healthy life for most people. Adding in two miles of walking everyday plus any strength building activity will make your hormones about as optimal as you could ever hope for.
Well said, the only thing I could add is that the amount of carbs or fat that is best for individuals varies quite dramatically. In my teens and twenties, I thrived on starches, but as my metabolism has changed I cannot tolerate them nearly as well. So now, my mat and protein stay fairly constant and I vary my carb intake depending upon my activity levels. I find if I can keep my carbs between 50 -100g, appetite is well controlled with good energy and 2 meals/day.
I’d like to see what Dr. Lustig would say to him in a debate?
Dr.McDougal’s plan did not work for me…I mean it was successfull in getting me Pre-Diabetic.He’s such a hypocrite saying No One has failed his diet. He’s the classic arrogant Dr., always blaming the patient instead of the diet.
John McDougall has really annoyed me to be honest. Jimmy you’re I great shape. you still have belly waste but that will go with some time, just need to do some specific kids of aerobic exercises to shift that. I only eat rice because my wife is Chinese and I don’t want to disrupt our meal times by not eating what she eats. I’m figuring out how to combine rice and low carb principles. Basically rice isn’t as evil as wheat as described in wheat belly. It’s also low GI. But I’d lose much quicker I didn’t have it. still slow weight loss is better for losing the excess skin.
I’m a bit confused. You say that you’ve lost a lot of weight and you’re the lowest you’ve been your entire adult life, but I’m looking at recent (Nov 2012) videos of you and you are fat and look unhealthy. Are there more recent photo’s showing your superior health anywhere?
I used to weigh 400lbs, which was caused by a food addiction and living on a low carb roller coaster.. I have since lost 225lbs, and live healthier than ever before, as a plant based, spirit-filled foods consumer.. raw/living fruits, greens, sprouted seeds, and vegetables, provide me with all essential nutrients for peak health. I could no longer imagine eating anything but the true building blocks of life, of which, decaying flesh is not.
Your path is your own, but I could not eat animals again, as its murder for pleasure, which my consciousness cannot live with. Truly, it is not necessary to end a life, in order to maintain life.
Maybe if we lived in the days where we did not have such abundant agriculture, like cave men, but now it is no longer necessary to murder animals for the pleasure received from eating their flesh, which is the only reason why people truly eat meat.
God Bless
If you’ve found what works for you, then that’s awesome James. Congratulations buddy and here’s to many years of healthy living.
Two years as a whole food vegan and I never encountered a plant food that didn’t decay. Add to that that plants also have flesh, and one has to wonder where this magical non-decaying plant flesh that you’re eating comes from. Personally, I wouldn’t eat ANYTHING that doesn’t decay- but it’d be interesting to check out this miracle of veganism.
Hello Jimmy,
Too bad the interview went as it went. I listened to the interview John. A. McDougall had with Robert Atkins in 2007, I must say Atkins managed to parry McDougall very well. Strong point was that Atkins emphasized the similar effect the two opposing diets had. Due to your podcast I listened to several McDougallโs podcasts and the audio of videos. I tried to find the similarities with the diet I follow, namely the Perfect Health Diet of the Jaminets. What I found was that in both diets there is a place for safe starches and no or very little room for omega-6 rich plant oils, refined sugars (containing lots of fructose) and
wheat. On many other aspects McDougall differs from the Jaminets, but maybe there is a beginning of a consensus or a clue. BTW with you, I believe that already few starches may be no option for those who are already metabolically derailed.
VBR, Hans Keer
Dear Dr. McDougall,
You mad bro?
Maybe you wouldn’t have to argue your position so much if you actually had facts on your side. You could just lay them out and let thinking people decide for themselves. I know a guy that does that though he’s not a doctor. What’s his name again? Oh yeah, Jimmy Moore…
My hair hurts listening to this clown.
I am a follower of the McDougall plan but I have to admit, Dr. McDougall was rude in this interview and likely undermined his position. I followed low carb for a few years and lost only a few pounds but was not able to maintain that small loss very long. Now, following the McDougall way of eating, I have not lost any weight (and when I posted on his message boards to ask for help, I was insulted and accused of cheating). But I do believe the science of a low-fat plant-based diet for health, so I keep trying. Anyway, McDougal fans may not like to admit it, but Dr. McDougall *was* rude to you in this interview.
According to other sources Jimmy baited McDougall and this is exactly what he wanted to get his ratings back up again.
So combative. Epidemiological data is what it is, love it,
hate it, dismiss it. Meat, dairy, cigarette loving France is 4th for
life expectancy. Of the rice/potato gang only Japan (1st) is higher, Korea 19th, China 49th, Vietnam 61st, and Peru 86th. And of course nobody mentions India the largest population of vegetarians theyโre 138th. Sure there are plenty of factors (umm quality of healthcare) here but at least quiche is not acutely toxic.
Itโs interesting โn of oneโ was meaningless for Walhs and
Jimmy yet proof that Atkins killed himself with his own diet. Has the veg squad ever heard of crossfit? Weak, sickly, and fat right? How about diet death match McDougall/Barnard vs. Sisson/Wolf. I know who Iโm betting on
Morbid obesity and long term weight loss are a whole
separate subject. I would be shocked if McDougall has data supporting compliance with his diet is any better for that population. My impression is none of big names in veganism
have ever been even 10lbs overweight.
The way he kept telling you that the switch to processed and refined carbohydrates wasn’t as significant as the increase in animal food was frustrating. What he advocates has NOTHING to do with fleshing out the potential causes of the decline in health. I would love to see his evidence that additional animal food is the bigger change. I call bullshit.
Two years of whole food veganism left me diabetic, hypertensive and 65lbs heavier. 10.5 months of low-carb Paleo left me 100lbs leaner and reversed the diabetes and hypertension- and years later, I’m still there. =)
Anecdata is worthless until you start pooling it. Then then it becomes data.
Plenty of people have said that Jimmy should have returned McDougal’s vitriol, but I have to defend Jimmy’s restraint in not descending to Dr. McDougal’s level of tribal warfare.
Paleo is, unfortunately, still very much a minority viewpoint where diet is concerned. Most people are still wed to low-fat/calorie-restricted. So, people seek out like-minded leaders, and for minority viewpoints this becomes prone to becoming cultish (particulary as seen by the outside world). I suspect the paleo ‘community’ is already seen like a paleo ‘cult’ by many non-adherents.
So, it’s healthy both for the insiders and the outsiders for people like Jimmy to welcome competing viewpoints onto his show to rationally and (hopefully) civilly debate the differences in their positions. I’m sure Jimmy doesn’t want his show to function like an echo-chamber, converting the converted.
We all have to keep in mind that perhaps a non-paleo “expert” will come in here and teach us (and maybe Jimmy) some things we didn’t know already. I, for one, love potatoes, rice, corn, etc…and I would love to be able to safely re-incorporate them into my diet knowing I could do so without spiking my blood sugar and contributing to insulin resistance, etc. And if such a path to “insulin-safe” starches were laid out by Dr. McDougal, I’d have been a listening ear, were he convincing or could point us to studies showing that this had been effectively done, particularly for people already metabolically damaged by the refined carbohydrates he even agrees do damage.
Unfortunately, McDougal clearly seems to be well-entrenched into tribalist us-vs-them thinking and was only interested in coming on the show to tell Jimmy how stupid he is (you know, because he doesn’t have a piece of paper proving prior indoctrination). Jimmy proved himself the superior human being by acting like an adult. This, more than the “fight back” approach, should help Jimmy retain the ability to get competing viewpoints on the show in the future, and that benefits all of us.
Where to even begin…
1. McDougall talked way too much. It was obvious he wanted to blurt out as much info as he could to keep Jimmy from talking. Reminded me of a more arrogant version of Dr. Ornish.
2. When Jimmy subtly suggested sugar and refined carbs might have caused those modern Hawaiians’ afflictions, McDougall became extremely defensive. Aggressively so, even. It was a simple question–why couldn’t he just answer it? He also accused Jimmy of insinuating that the McDougall diet was full of sugar, which he absolutely did not do. The guy didn’t even listen at all…he just loved to hear himself talk.
3. Good God, how many times did I hear, “I am a DOCTOR… I have treated [x number of] patients…” So what? There are plenty of low-carb DOCTORS who have treated thousands of patients as well, with extreme success. You should be able to argue your points with science-based arguments, not desperately default to your credentials. There are a lot of doctors, and there is a huge range of opinions among them. Saying, “I’m a Doctor” is not a trump card, or a punch line. It is a cop-out.
4. In addition to observational metadata, McDougall’s clinical arguments were based on anecdotal evidence. He was also quick to engage in the personally nasty and (also) anecdotal practice of pointing to individual low-carb folks and calling them fat. And yet, when Jimmy used individual examples, McDougall dismissed them immediately as anecdotal and thus useless. “You’re an experiment of one.” Oh, I see. So anecdotal evidence is okay, as long as it supports McDougall’s points. It’s not reliable when it supports the opposing view.
That was absolutely ridiculous. Vegans, is this your spokesman and hero? Really?
look Chinese eat rice. rice is starch and therefore the perfect category of food. Chinese also eat lots of oil, meat, bread, refine sugars, KFC, MC Donald’s, you name it. I guess meat is the perfect food too, and bread, and oil, and KFC, and MC๏ปฟ Donald’s. I lived there for years and trust me they eat lots and lots of meat. Lots. The Chinese eat it so it must be perfect. Or wait perhaps their metabolisms differs from the way the average non- Asian’s metabolism works. WOW maybe that’s it.
You’re right about what the Chinese eat today. Unfortunately, obesity is on the rise in China because they’re starting to eat more like Americans.
We listened to this podcast with great interest. Jimmy, you handled yourself as a true gentleman against great odds! We respect that you bring on guests with differing points of view, and we agree with your perspective that one approach doesn’t fit all, and we do appreciate hearing a variety of ideas and research (although personally we have had success with a low carb Paleo influenced diet for several years). Dr. macdougal’s belligerent, condescending, “I’m a doctor” attitude certainly didn’t impress us. His attacks on you and others in the low carb / Paleo movement came across as childish and desperate.
Glad to have you back, Jimmy. Keep up the great work.
Wow, sugar is not health food is NOT an answer to Mr Moore’s legitimate questions about the change in HOW we eat (takeout, fastfood, frozen prepackaged food) … Low carb works, it is scientifically proven.What he is doing seems to be nothing more than CR, which clearly works but it doesn’t matter what you eat when you are restricting calories (although you can eat more food it you eat lower calories foods, like potatoes, rice and all sorts of veggies). There is more than one way to skin a cat, but it all depends on what works for the individual – like, I have the time to google and find recipes that are low carb, then prepare them fro scratch for my family at home. I save on money and we are all healthy. But, for those with fast paced lifestyles or who don’t like to cook, might not be a great diet. To each his own. I think we call all agree that more natural food, with less additives etc, is better on ANY diet.
This is ridiculous. Sorry but I have to comment again.This is pure fantasy. He wants us to believe that these people can never eat any dairy, any meat, and apparently any sugar (it is NOT a health food, did you know that?) and his compliance it as high as 80% of people follow the diet 100% of the time? Where in Neverland?
Jimmy,
I wasn’t expecting Dr. McDougall to be this abrasive. His agitation, because you had the temerity to question him, was quite off putting. As a man of science, as he professes to be, he should welcome inquiry. His caustic tone, and his insistence on taking personal jabs at you, without updating himself on your improving physical condition, illustrates that Dr. McDougall is not so much concerned about the science as opposed to upholding his dietary dogma. Jimmy, I have to commend you for keeping your composure. You definitely showed more self-control than I would have shown.
There was a lot wrong with Dr. McDougall’s arguments, but one of the most glaring problems was his notions about human evolution and the historical human diet. His ideas about these things are the stuff of vegan fantasy, and not historical reality. Every bit of evidence shows that a largely starch based diet was only adopted by human beings in the last 10,000 years of our existence, because that was when we finally developed the knowledge and technology to cultivate grains, corn, potatoes, rice and other starches in sufficient quantities to feed populations. It should be noted that the when scientists reference 10,000 years ago, as a turning point in food production, it only points to the time in which agriculture emerged as a force in some parts of the world. In reality other large portions of the world did not see the emergence of agriculture until much more recently. That 10,000 years of existence is a small fraction of the total time homo sapiens have been around. Fossil records are pretty much conclusive that for the vast majority of human history homo sapiens subsisted on meat.
This notion is not just something that is asserted by Paleo advocates, like Dr. Boyd Eaton, Dr. Loren Cordain and Robb Wolf. These are things that are well acknowledged by most evolutionary biologists, such as the esteemed author, Dr. Jared Diamond, who wrote the award winning book “Guns, Germs, and Steel”. Dr. Jared Diamond has no stake in the Paleo vs. Vegan debate and writes primarily about what made certain societies successful and others fail, from an evolutionary perceptive. I bring his highly acclaimed book up also to point out that Dr. McDougall is using flawed logic when he states that “all successful large societies eat a starch based diet”. As Dr. Diamond points out in his book, large populations that were successful militarily and politically, needed a largely starch based diet because it was cheap and plentiful. The problem with Dr. McDougall is that he is erroneously conflating what can maintain large populations with what is best for INDIVIDUAL human health. Those are two different things.
I think he secretly knows how dubious much of his ideas are. That is why he got particularly irate when you kept bringing up the sugar and wheat angle, because it creates a huge problem for the evidence he uses to demonstrate the efficacy of his diet, and the supposed deleterious effects of a low carb diet, rich in animal foods. In order to demonstrate that increased meat consumption, in successive generations, is what is causing all of our health problems, he would have to demonstrate that other items, like sugar and wheat, which also rose steeply in successive generations (more so than meat consumption) was not the real culprit of those maladies. Since most of what he cites is epidemiological studies, there is no way to control for those things. As the old saying goes correlation is not causation. Maybe Dr. McDougall forgot that elementary scientific principle because he is blinded by his vegan crusade.
As always Jimmy, I appreciate all you do and your willingness to be an open forum for opposing points of view – even if those opposing points of view are expressed rudely and irrationally by some of your guests.
-Lawrence
I use too feel like shit eating lots of fat and carbs (meat cheese starch and fruit and veg), then I want high fat felt better but then chose to be vegan and want high carb and now feel amazing. Its the mix of fat and sugar that causes many problems for everyone. btw Doritos, pizza, chips, Ice cream, cakes, donuts are higher in fat than carbs, they are fat food not carb…Also if you put butter or sour cream on your potatoes, or alfredo sauce on your pasta or oilly dressing on your lettuce you are getting once again alot more calories from fat than carbs.
LOL! Keep telling yourself that.
lol A cup of plain brown rice has significantly more calories than a cup of broccoli florets smothered in butter. It’s the carbs that add the most fat to the average person’s diet. And why mention adding fat to densely starchy carbs? No one here is eating those carb sources. We’re all eating densely NUTRITIOUS, fibrous carbs with lots of real, luscious fat on them. Mmmmm. We stay fuller, longer and we get more nutrition in per calorie. =)
I am a fan of Mc Dougall and his diet. I have tried Atkins and was miserable on it so know that paleo would not work for me. Plus it gave me body odor and bad breath and oily skin. With that being said I can see how some people think Dr. Mc Dougall came off as rude in this interview but I assure you that he is very passionate about what he teaches as he has seen first hand how it has helped thousands and thousands of people with some very serious health issues.
The low-carb vs plant-base video was definitely a cheap shot. I did not realize until now that John McDougall was behind it. The video seems to show an act of desperation by a group that is losing the intellectual argument. Certainly you can show Dean Ornish and Peter Attia as counter examples. People with attractive bodies probably exercise more, and maybe the low-fat advocate shown simply exercised more because they have to.
How many mg’s of caffeine were pumping through your veins during this interview jimmy boi? And what other sups you taking dawg.