After months of being away from podcasting while writing the manuscript to my forthcoming book Cholesterol Clarity: What The HDL Is Wrong With My Numbers?, I am excited to be returning to my regular Monday through Friday schedule of “The Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb Show,” “Ask The Low-Carb Experts” and “Low-Carb Conversations” beginning again on Monday, June 3, 2013. To come back with a bang, I decided to make my very first interview on “The Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb Show” a controversial, engaging guest who will have everyone talking.
Well, there are several that could have fit this criteria, but I think this describes my interviewee to a T–The Starch Solution author and vegan activist Dr. John McDougall! My goal was to treat Dr. McDougall with all the respect I typically do of all of my guests, including other anti-low-carb vegans I have interviewed such as Dr. Dean Ornish and Dr. Neal Barnard. While I expected opposition to my point of view, I couldn’t have imagined the personal criticism and vitriolic attacks towards me for simply daring to question his nutritional beliefs.
To whet your appetite for tomorrow’s full-length interview, I posted a few clips on YouTube for you to get a feel for how it went. This was arguably the most challenging interview guest I’ve ever had! And that’s saying a lot since I’ve interviewed someone as bombastic as Durianrider before. Check these snippets out and don’t miss hearing my interview with Dr. McDougall in its entirety on Monday.
Are Sugar, Fat, Meat And Dairy Evil?
Why Do You Struggle With Weight?
Is There A One-Size-Fits-All Diet?
If I Could Help You, I Would
What’s Your Authority?
What did you expect? He’s a proper vegan. Hasn’t had enough serotonin in his brain to crack a smile in yonks.
Good point.
Jimmy, You were such a gracious host on this interview which speaks highly of you and for the Paleo community or whatever eating community one is in. I have to say I wish he had left his ego at the door and had more of an open mind. I felt like it was a conversation of It’s My Way of No Way. Anyway I love your podcasts and have learned so much from you and your guests. Thank you and keep up the good work. Judy
Wow…what a jerk. You were very fair to give him a good hearing and he totally abused it. I have found that most people that are like this and who refuse to debate an issue do so because their views don’t stand up well to debate.
Jimmy, you were bending over backwards to find common ground and he was having none of it. I disagree that ALL (he put the ‘all’ in capital letters, not me) people groups ate starch and no dairy and meat. Sally Fallon talks about the fact that many people groups incorporated raw dairy and fermented dairy in the form of yogurt into their culture. These would be northern Europeans and northern Russians, I think – cultures who would have no access to rice and beans.
And yet, if you had mentioned this, he probably would have dismissed them out of hand, the way he did the Inuit and Dr. Terry Wahls (I found his dismissal of her, extremely offensive. She has helped so many people.) And he was simply unkind and bullying when he said about Atkins – ‘and he’s dead.’ To me the way he said it was very disrespectful.
He came across as a bully.
Well, if vegans can make videos that claim that the only healthy body type is rail-thin, maybe we can make videos that say that the only healthy personality type is kind, generous, and patient?
In my experience, vegans or low-fat eaters in general are some cranky, angry people….but how could what you eat affect how you feel, right? All that matters is how you look!!! :p
Anyway, I went over to Dr McDougall’s website and took a look at the forum. While I don’t doubt that adopting a low/no-fat vegan diet would have positive health effects for people who are already obese/diabetic/sick with heart disease (in the same way that ANY diet which causes people to choose real food over processed foods would be helpful), a glance at the “Health Problems” section of Dr McDougall’s forum is instructive….yep, lots of people with rising triglycerides, weight that won’t budge, dangerously low blood pressure, fatigue, etc. And what are they pretty much universally told by the forum members? “You’re just not vegan enough.”
Dogmatism is dangerous. Period. There is no “one-size-fits-all” solution, and only a fool would defend such a claim.
I thought I’d leave one more message here…I’m a chef, and I have a particular interest in traditional diets and cuisines from around the world.
I think Dr McDougall’s argument that “no successful, large population has ever lived on a diet of anything but starch” is pretty transparently false. He uses east asia and south america as his primary examples- which makes sense, because those are the two regions on earth where there were no large mammals suitable for domestication. The diets of these regions were ingenious and very successful solutions to a big problem- lack of available protein sources in the diet. But to claim that these two regions, with their highly unique circumstances, are the “last word” on human diets is preposterous.
I can name several successful civilizations whose diets were not starch-based. We can start with the largest empire in the history of mankind- the Mongols. Their diet was essentially free of starch, consisting (like many other extremely healthy nomadic cultures, such as the Masai, the Bedouin etc) primarily of the milk, blood, and meat of their animals (horses in the case of the Mongols, camels for the Bedouin, and cattle for the Masai).
Next, the Goths, or Germanic peoples who overthrew the Roman empire. A common racial slur that the Romans used against these peoples was “butter-eaters”- because, as any good Roman knew, civilized people preferred olive oil 🙂 Not only did these barbarians have the horrid habit of eating butter in vast quantities, they were also described by the Romans as giants, with superhuman strength and endurance, etc. The farro-eating Romans were quite outclassed, physically.
The Nordic peoples (“Vikings”) were legendary warriors, and some of the most intrepid sea-farers in history as their early journeys to Greenland and North America attest- on a fish and dairy based diet.
The Basque people were also incredibly hardy and brave ocean-goers…perhaps due in part to the diet rich in fish and fat from their precious Black Pigs?
The North American Plains Indians were also frequently non-agrarian, and lived on diets based primarily on plants, animal fats, and organ meats.
Dr McDougall made the claim in his interview that people from the Fertile Crescent region ate/eat diets based predominantly on grains with little meat and “NO dairy” (Dr. McDougall’s words). While the Middle-Eastern diet does contain a great deal of grain and legumes, they are hardly vegan. These people are traditionally herdsmen, with goats and sheep playing a central part of their food culture. Go to any middle eastern market, and look at the broad variety of yogurts, cheeses, curds, and meats if you doubt. In fact, I obtain my raw grass-fed milk from a co-operative run by Egyptian immigrants, who were moved to start that business when they came to the US and were unable to obtain the vital health-bestowing dairy products that they had been raised on.
So, I’d say that if looking at traditional diets tells one anything, it is that humans are omnivores, and that the healthiest populations around the world have always been those that include all of the most nutrient-dense foods that their environment provides in their diets, in balanced and moderate amounts.
Enough with the silly belligerent arguing- spend your time at your local farmer’s market instead!!!
McDougall did say large populations, which would have to be agriculture based. These populations were dominant not necessarily because they had better health, but simple because they had the advantage of numbers. Nevertheless, this only applies to the start of agriculture, 10,000 years ago. Hardly the 2 million years of human history that he claimed. The human diet was animal based before agriculture.
Wow. Instead of a rational discussion of the science; McDougall resorts to appeal to authority: your argument is worthless because “Im a doctor” instead of arguing the point. Apparently McDougall would push of a blood glucose shock of a diet of high glycemic whole wheat bread; mashed potatoes; rice which would cause a large insulin spike; put one on the road to metabolic syndrome and Type 2 diabetes; cause Irritable bowel syndrome; flatulence; tooth decay; and obesity. Paleo man certainly didnt eat toast; bread; popcorn; doritos doughnuts, pasta. It was green plants and small mammals; fish from the stream, nuts seeds, berries. I did the starch experiment; myself; having grown up in the 70’s and it resulted for me in all the above ailments. Im 50 pounds slimmer and more energetic; and off the phamaceutical chemicals. Paleo man didn’t run around with a blood glucose meter in his back pocket. Good for Jimmy Moore for arguing the science to Mr. “Im a doctor”.
ps: Carbohydrates convert inside the body to sugar; and sugar converts to fat.
Thanks for listening Leni. 🙂
McDougall clearly believes in the Lipid Hypothesis. The Lipid Hypothesis was supposed to apply to all, but if it didn’t then it would be responsible for a medical disaster for a large portion of the population. Is it any wonder that he is so defensive and cannot even admit that some people are better off on an animal based diet.