491: Harley ‘DurianRider’ Johnstone From ’30 Bananas A Day’ And ‘Primal Wisdom’ Blogger Don Matesz
[podcast]http://traffic.libsyn.com/llvlcshow/LLVLC-ep-491-durianrider-matesz.mp3[/podcast]
High-carb raw vegan diet advocate Harley “DurianRider” Johnstone and “Primal Wisdom” blogger Don Matesz join us for today’s episode of The Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb Show With Jimmy Moore!
We’re back from a brief sabbatical and rip-roaring ready to go with an exciting brand new episode of your favorite health podcast! And today Jimmy demonstrates that he’s not afraid to talk to people with whom he does not share their perspective when it comes to nutrition and health. Both of today’s guests strongly believe in having raw fruits and starchy tubers as the cornerstones of a healthy diet. We’ll see what you think of their arguments in favor of this high-carb-fest!
First up, we hear from the man known as “DurianRider” (aka Harley Johnstone) who shares with us why raw veganism–featuring AT LEAST 30 pounds of bananas and other such fruit a day–is his key to a healthy lifestyle. He also attempts to explain how he considers himself sedentary despite biking 25 miles over 70 minutes on a daily basis plus doing his daily errands by foot or bike. This, of course, seems like it would go a long way towards explaining his assertion that even sedentary people do fine with massive amounts of carbohydrates.
Then in the second interview, we’ll hear from former Paleo diet advocate Don Matesz from the “Primal Wisdom” blog who explains why he has decided to drift away from a meat-based, controlled carbohydrate diet towards one heavily featuring potatoes and rice. You’ve wanted to hear from him ever since he wrote that infamous “Farewell to ‘Paleo'” blog post a few months back and now we have him for you in this exclusive interview. This is certainly a fascinating episode that curious minds won’t want to miss!
LINKS MENTIONED IN EPISODE 491
– Support our sponsor: Low-Carb Quest Protein Bars
– Come on The 2012 Low-Carb Cruise
– Harley “Durianrider” Johnstone bio
– “30 Bananas A Day” forum
– Don Matesz bio
– “Primal Wisdom” blog
– Don’s infamous “Farewell To ‘Paleo'” blog post
– Ancestral Health Symposium 2011 lecture: “Ancestral nutrition: An alternative approach” by Don Matesz
Jimmy, I improved my level in derby from level 3 last year to level 4, level 5 being the highest. As for my cardio since the last time I was skills tested I got a level 5, the highest level! Last time I got 23 laps in five minutes, a level 4. This time I got 27 laps in five minutes. You have to get 25 laps minimum to get level 5. I eat a looooot of fat, low carb veggies and salads, moderate amount of meat and am keto-adapted. Tell vegan boy to explain that. Do I need carbs? Nah!
Best,
Laurie-Avalanche Rosen
Jimmy, I improved my level in derby from level 3 last year to level 4, level 5 being the highest. As for my cardio since the last time I was skills tested I got a level 5, the highest level! Last time I got 23 laps in five minutes, a level 4. This time I got 27 laps in five minutes. You have to get 25 laps minimum to get level 5. I eat a looooot of fat, low carb veggies and salads, moderate amount of meat and am keto-adapted. Tell vegan boy to explain that. Do I need carbs? Nah!
Best,
Laurie-Avalanche Rosen
It is curious how he kept avoiding the question.
Durianrider is not someone I care to have associated in any manner with this site Jimmy. I have followed his rants on the net and in various forums he pops in for quite a while. He attacks people using twisted info and misrepresentations, slanderous comments based on twisted information. To get respect you have to give respect…this guys is just an asshole.
Fair enough. But I think we learned more about the man behind the persona by having him on my show. And he was willing to be on the program which says a lot.
Jimmy,
As you know I am a school librarian, and I mostly read a lot of children’s books. Recently, I found a really good children’s book on Lewis and Clark and there journey west. Several of their diary entries were in the book and Lewis and Clark describe how they would go on buffalo hunts with the Native Americans. Lewis and Clark described the thousands and thousands of buffalo they saw. That is how the Native Americans survived for thousands of years: eating buffalo. Sacajawea who went with Lewis and Clark would gather berries for the men to eat. But the berries could not sustained them. If Lewis and Clark did not eat meat, they and the other 40 men would have died on that journey. Only one man died and that was from what was believed from a diseased appendix. This is in the historical record.
My point is this: how all of a sudden is meat bad for us like this guy says, and the Native Americans in the western plains totally survived thousands of years eating buffalo meat? As a matter of fact, Lewis and Clark and the crew got so sick and tired of eating salmon at one point, they resorted to eating a dog (yuck). There bodies were crying out for fatty meat. They needed fat. I hate it when people talk about stuff and it is not steeped in historical fact only what they think or feel. The reason his diet works for him because he sounds like an endurance athlete. Endurance athletes can eat like that.
Excellent points, Michelle!
Thanks guys for a respectable discussion.
Regarding Phinney’s research on low carb effects on endurance, I think you have to put it in the context of intensity level. Pinney showed that trained cyclists could go on a ketogenic diet for four weeks and not impair their time to exhaustion at less than 70% max HR. This is moderate intensity at best where fat is a major fuel source.
But Phinney said that cyclists didn’t sprint as well. In fact, his conclusion in his 2004 article was:
“…anaerobic (ie, weight lifting or sprint) performance is limited by the low muscle glycogen levels induced by a ketogenic diet, and this would strongly discourage its use under most conditions of competitive athletics.”I think this is why folks like Colting, Sisson and Colpo recommend carbs during training and right after training to replenish muscle glycogen. It seems that gluconeogenesis is not an efficient enough source of glucose.
True Kelly. My point was that most people aren’t these kind of endurance athletes.
Agreed – it’s like sugar cane harvesters eating sugar cane all day. Works fine for them but not for me. I’m sure Durianrider’s fine for athletes, but he didn’t indicate that he knew enough about metabolism and lipids to be suggesting what non-athletes should be eating.
I agree with your point Jimmy. And I must say that Harley downplayed his athleticism a bit much. As you said the typical office worker is much more sedentary than Harley describes himself. And I’m skeptical about his reported physical activity if he is truely consuming an average of 3500 daily calories. If that were the case, then Harley woud be in a calorie surplus and gaining weight. I’m not saying Harley is lying, just maybe not counting the calories or logging the miles very accurately. I like Harley and find him entertaining, kinda like how I like those silly SNL skits.
LOL! Yes, he is entertaining…but may be leading people astray with his misrepresentations unfortunately.
Nice to have you back Jimmy, hope you had a really nice holiday. I like that you have other people aswell and not just low-carb/paleo people on your show. I have been on a low-carb diet or as I like to call it LCLC (low carb, low crap) for 2 years now and I feel great and I haven’t been sick once. I also don’t use soap, schampoo and toothpaste anymore, I got inspired by Richard Nikoley and what he wrote on his blog about not using soap. Looking forward to listen to your interview with Dr. Eenfeldt.
Cheers from Sweden.
THANKS for listening and it’s GOOD to be back. 🙂
Wow… I just couldn’t listen to any more of his ranting. You commended him on his politeness, but honestly, you should have called him out on his baloney. Of course, the guy didn’t pause even to breathe, so it would have been hard for you to contradict him.
Thanks for the alternate point of view, DurianRider. I ate vegan and GAINED weight. The minute I went low carb and got past the bonking phase, the weight just dropped off. Don’t try to tell me that eating MORE fruits and veggies would have given me the same results. I know otherwise.
I don’t usually cut off my guests when they’re speaking. But I hear ya.
I love how someone who claims to be so “detail oriented” hasn’t looked into the details.
There’s certainly plenty of details out there.
Jimmy,
First, I greatly appreciate you and Harley “DurianRider” Johnstone for keeping the tone of this interview very civil. Given that both of you come from diametrically opposing positions, it is nice to see that both of you can disagree without being disagreeable. From my experiences, when dealing with two people coming from two different nutritional paradigms, discussions usually devolve into mudslinging. The vitriol usually gets so intense as to rival a “holy war” between two different fundamentalist religious sects.
Speaking of religious fervor, from this interview, it would seem that Mr. Johnston treats his adherence to veganism more like religious dogma than a perspective that is grounded in science. He discounts much of the evidence adduced by low carb advocates without really explaining what flaws he finds in the evidence. He seems to rely on his personal experience as the only guide for what is true, and does only seem to take into account evidence when it supports his views. In fact, you can tell that he is living in a pretty myopic world, in comparison to you Jimmy, just by listening closely to the interview. You demonstrated your knowledge of veganism, by mentioning the names of some prominent men within the vegan/vegetarian world, like Dr. McDougall, Dr. Ornish, Dr. Barnard, and Dr. Fuhrman, and how you had a few of them on your show. Mr. Johnston, on the other hand, wasn’t able to mention any of the prominent doctors and researchers on the other side of the fence, like Dr. Volek, Dr. Phinney, Dr. Westman, Dr. Harris, Dr. Lusting, etc. This one sided aspect of Johnston’s knowledge reveals that his entire perspective is based on cherry picking, and not a candid and open assessment of the data.
He seems to ground most of his arguments on personal experience. Of course, being an individual who hangs around other endurance athletes and other vegans, makes his experiences hardly broad enough to justify being so dismissive of the low carb lifestyle, especially when it comes to its proven effect on producing weight loss and health benefits. After all, just as many personal stories can be found where people lose tremendous amounts of weight, improve all markers of health, using a diet that is low carb and is based mostly on animal flesh and animal products. The problem with personal experience is that, since experiences vary so much from person to person, it can be used to justify or deny anything. For example, I live in a tropical climate, and have never PERSONALLY experienced surviving in a frigid area like Alaska. Does that mean, because I have never PERSONALLY experienced living in an artic climate, that it is IMPOSSIBLE to do? Should I discount the millions of people who do survive and thrive in such freezing environments as lying or being personally deluded? That is just silly. But this is precisely what Johnstone does. Most of the knowledge that we rely on to live is based on the research and experience of others, and I am sure when you get Johnstone away from promoting his vegan lifestyle, he believes in a lot of things that he has personally never experienced. He couldn’t live otherwise.
I hate to charge someone with being intellectually dishonest, but I have to say that Johnstone is guilty of it. Anytime, you or any of his detractors on YouTube bring up guys like Sisson or Dr. De Vany, showing how people who are passed 50 years old are in excellent shape following a low carb/Paleo approach to diet, he disqualifies such stellar examples by insinuating that they are taking human growth hormone or some other performance enhancing substance, without any evidence. This is actually worse than intellectual dishonesty. This is slanderous.
As much as I appreciate Mr. Johnstone for being open enough to come on your show, I have to give you more credit than him for being not as blindly dogmatic. You really do have the right perspective in saying that there is “no one size fits all” for diets. Humans are, after all, a species with a great deal of variety. Not everyone wears the same shoe size. Not everyone has the same IQ. Not everyone is the same height. Not everyone is allergic to the same foods. There are innumerable differences between people. So what would make anyone think that one diet is best suited for everyone? This is a maxim that should be kept in mind by everyone in the diet debate – whether you are a high carb raw vegan proponent, or you abide by a low carb meat based diet. I don’t doubt that a high carb vegan lifestyle works well for Johnstone, and I extend him the courtesy by trusting his own testimony. He, and other vegans, should do the same for us.
-Lawrence
Well said Lawrence!
DurianRider and Denise Minger have something important in common: neither has need of a car so they avoid the bad carma of never walking anywhere.
Uhhh, huh?
About your second interview with Don, I’m surprised that at some point you didn’t invite his wife Tracy formally into the discussion. She was definitely giving Don a lot of input throughout the interview. From what I heard, Don’s “farewell to Paleo” seemed to be more influenced by Tracy’s experience than his own.
I so agree with you Kelly.
Congrats, Jimmy, on handling two very unprofessional men so graciously and with integrity.
Durianrider claims to want evidence when it’s right in front of him. He’s seen it, but doesn’t know how to refute it so he claims ignorance and the inability of others to provide him the information. It’s all over the interwebs – ignorance of the science is no excuse. He’s dangerous and harming people with the way he denies the unhealthy aspects of his diet. Furthermore, I’d love to see him go head to head with any Cross Fit enthusiast – better yet, how about head to head with any one of the beloved in the paleo community he’s personally attacked!
Don – oh, so, painful, to, listen, to, ummmm, really, very, painful. The man may be a wordsmith (I’ve never looked at his blog) but he comes across as indecisive and lacking confidence in anything he says. It’s even worse that he is supposed to be giving a professional interview and he’s got some woman telling him what to say half the time and then promoting her own blog. It’s what us southerners call “tacky”.
I’m not impressed, nor am I persuaded. As a woman with PCOS and insulin resistance – either one of those diets would have me in full blown diabetes, gaining weight and exacerbating the aspects of PCOS. I hope Don does not counsel his patients to eat tofu or any soy – estrogenic foods like that are poison to a PCOS-er!
Regardless, always good to listen to other viewpoints if only to further strengthen my belief that Livin La Vida Low Carb is the best way to eat!
And that’s why I do these interviews. THANKS for listening Sonya!
Don stated that part of the reason he stayed with Paleo so long was to try to save a failing relationship. I hope his dietary switcheroo for the sake of harmony in his new relationship works out better for him. His tap dance of other justifications was difficult to listen to and very transparent, though. Especially when his resposes started being fed to him.
He seemed nervous to me.
I’m a little late to this party, but I just had to compliment you, Jimmy on what a skillful interviewer you’ve become. You were able to guide your guests through all the points you audience is interested in, without making them defensive or combative. Bravo.
THANKS Gloria!
Methinks I have to do an n=1 experiment fruits all week . . .
Don must be very much in love with Tracy. In any case, she sounds like a very inspiring ear whisperer and coach. I wish Don all the best on his search for the optimum.
I was vLC. I was adapted to ketones.
I am an athlete. I “bonked”!!!! And I know plenty of others.
There is NO WAY one can be a successful athlete without carbs. No way! If you do leasury walks or short runs, then yeah, you might pull it off longer than most, but endurance athletes need carbs!!! the body cannot convert fat/protein (or use ketones) fast enough to provide the body with enough energy needed doing high-performance work. A marathon, i.e. is not a walk in the park or “long, slow distance”. It’s pretty effing intense!!!!!
So is a 10K race.
This is why top athletes eat carbs, and this is why there are “no” vLC or LC successfull athletes. 25% carbs might sound “low”, but if you consume 5000+ kCal/day, you do the math. No carbs during a long distance race will make you “bonk”. It’s a simple fact.
Jonas Coltin is NOT low carb and he even says himself that he would never be able to train without carbs. He has nothing to do with the LCHF-mania in sweden, he eats at least 40E% carbs brom fruit, quinoa, tubers etc.
It’s easy for non-athletes, as Jimmy Moore himself, to claim certain things, but if LC is so great, than WHERE ARE THE ATHLETES????? And why do so many people jump off the LC-bandwagon? And why does “low carbers” race with carbs???
I used to be a brain-washed low carb high fatter myself, until I woke up and saw the facts, and burned out.
Dr Carey Reams has cured epileptics, with carbs amongst other (RBTI), because it’s actually believed to be a blood sugar issue. Sure, 80E% fat may be a temporary solution that is commonly used besides drugs, but hardly the solution.
Hi Jimmy
do you know by any chance how old Durianrider is?
I looked on his blog and he seems to be obsessed by the minimal bodyfat %% he can get. And how others are “fatter”.
But before he compares himself to let’s say Richard N. he better waits 20 or so years to be in the same age category, and then do what Richard does today (i.e. heavy deadlifts and what not).
I for one have about 15% bodyfat now and I theoretically know how to reduce below 10% (without resorting to raw fruits, pure LC) but at the same time I know that my gym records would suffer so I choose to be “fat” conciously.